Towing the line
I'm just all about reaching out to my readers this week, it seems.
So. Jack. Love of my life, smart, witty, amusing, adorable, frustrating, loving Jack. Mr. Soon-to-be 4 Years Old is having an issue at school. He doesn't want to take a nap. But the rules are the 3- and 4-year-olds either take a nap or have to lie quietly on their cots for the duration of nap time, which is about an hour.
Now Jack, he's not so much about the nap. Definitely not about the being quiet either. He's actually slept three times since September and has remained quiet maybe half the time. This week, things have gotten a little more, shall we say, challenging.
When he came home Monday, he announced, "Mommy, I did not take a nice nap and I wasn't listening. I was standing on my head on my cot!" Imagine that said with a huge smile and a gleeful yell. Mmhmmm. OK then.
Yesterday, I received a phone call at 2 p.m. from Jack's teacher.
"Hi, this is Miss A. from school," she said.
"Hi Miss A.," I replied cautiously.
"I have Jack here with me and he was being so loud at nap time that we had him go out and sit in the hall," she said. "Then he was so loud in the hall that three other teachers had to come out and tell him to be quiet. So I took him in the classroom with me (the kindergartners in his class work on reading when the younger kids nap) and he was disruptive in there as well. I thought a call to you might be helpful. Would you like to talk to him?" she asked.
"Put him on," I said with a sigh.
I hear a little voice.
"Mommy! I was not listening at nap!" he said with pride in his voice. "Now I have to go home early. Oh, and Mommy! I lost my shoes!"
I remain calm and say, "Jack, you need to listen RIGHT NOW. You tell Miss A. you are sorry and you will try harder and you stop yelling and being loud right now."
Miss A. takes the phone back and says she did not tell him he had to go home early and that his shoes are not lost, they were in his locker. She thanks me and says she'll see me at pickup after school.
She waited until after school to request a conference with herself, the other teacher in his class and Josh and me. Awesome. My almost-4-year-old needs a formal conference because he can't keep his shit together for an hour at nap time.
The other issue is that he laughs when disciplined or when he has an altercation with another student. As in, if he hits someone (which I think is pretty rare) he smiles while the other kid stands there crying. Miss A. says this upsets the other child even more because Jack doesn't show any remorse. We certainly see this behavior at home with Emmie, so no surprise there. Another example: he headbutted Maeve last night and I got in his face and yelled about as loud as I could and he laughed hysterically the whole time.
Not sure what the hell is going on, but the fact he shows no empathy or remorse is a little disconcerting. Most kids I know cry or get scared when faced with that kind of yelling -- not mine. And he's always been like this. I remember him laughing and running from timeout when he was 2 and not caring at all when I raised my voice.
So this leads to two questions:
1. Is it an outrageous expectation for an almost-4-year-old to remain quiet and lie still for an hour? What does your school do about nap time for your kids?
2. How does your child react to yelling or punishments? And should I be concerned about the lack of remorse?
Thoughts, please!
So. Jack. Love of my life, smart, witty, amusing, adorable, frustrating, loving Jack. Mr. Soon-to-be 4 Years Old is having an issue at school. He doesn't want to take a nap. But the rules are the 3- and 4-year-olds either take a nap or have to lie quietly on their cots for the duration of nap time, which is about an hour.
Now Jack, he's not so much about the nap. Definitely not about the being quiet either. He's actually slept three times since September and has remained quiet maybe half the time. This week, things have gotten a little more, shall we say, challenging.
When he came home Monday, he announced, "Mommy, I did not take a nice nap and I wasn't listening. I was standing on my head on my cot!" Imagine that said with a huge smile and a gleeful yell. Mmhmmm. OK then.
Yesterday, I received a phone call at 2 p.m. from Jack's teacher.
"Hi, this is Miss A. from school," she said.
"Hi Miss A.," I replied cautiously.
"I have Jack here with me and he was being so loud at nap time that we had him go out and sit in the hall," she said. "Then he was so loud in the hall that three other teachers had to come out and tell him to be quiet. So I took him in the classroom with me (the kindergartners in his class work on reading when the younger kids nap) and he was disruptive in there as well. I thought a call to you might be helpful. Would you like to talk to him?" she asked.
"Put him on," I said with a sigh.
I hear a little voice.
"Mommy! I was not listening at nap!" he said with pride in his voice. "Now I have to go home early. Oh, and Mommy! I lost my shoes!"
I remain calm and say, "Jack, you need to listen RIGHT NOW. You tell Miss A. you are sorry and you will try harder and you stop yelling and being loud right now."
Miss A. takes the phone back and says she did not tell him he had to go home early and that his shoes are not lost, they were in his locker. She thanks me and says she'll see me at pickup after school.
She waited until after school to request a conference with herself, the other teacher in his class and Josh and me. Awesome. My almost-4-year-old needs a formal conference because he can't keep his shit together for an hour at nap time.
The other issue is that he laughs when disciplined or when he has an altercation with another student. As in, if he hits someone (which I think is pretty rare) he smiles while the other kid stands there crying. Miss A. says this upsets the other child even more because Jack doesn't show any remorse. We certainly see this behavior at home with Emmie, so no surprise there. Another example: he headbutted Maeve last night and I got in his face and yelled about as loud as I could and he laughed hysterically the whole time.
Not sure what the hell is going on, but the fact he shows no empathy or remorse is a little disconcerting. Most kids I know cry or get scared when faced with that kind of yelling -- not mine. And he's always been like this. I remember him laughing and running from timeout when he was 2 and not caring at all when I raised my voice.
So this leads to two questions:
1. Is it an outrageous expectation for an almost-4-year-old to remain quiet and lie still for an hour? What does your school do about nap time for your kids?
2. How does your child react to yelling or punishments? And should I be concerned about the lack of remorse?
Thoughts, please!
posted by Amy at
12:59 PM
25 Comments:
Yeah, I think it's pretty silly for a school to expect a 4y/o to either sleep or be still and quiet for an hour. No way, no how could Ethan do either of those things. They don't offer any alternative for kids his age who don't nap anymore? I know the teachers need a break for that time, but couldn't assistants or volunteers for the school let them do some sort of relatively quiet activity in a room away from the kids who still nap? Jack can't be the only 4 year old who isn't napping!
Ethan loses it if I yell at him. "Mommy, please dont' be angry at me." Heart-breaking, which completely defeats the purpose b/c then I crumble and feel badly blah blah blah. Is there something he really loves that you could use as a consequence (like taking away a toy or an activity) when he is mean to his sisters?
sorry, sounds like a really frustrating day.
Hope things were better today at school for Jack - and for your sake.
how long is school? all day? i can understand a quiet time, but there is no way any of my kids would lay still for an hour at 4 years old. (seeing as how my kids stop napping at 2 years old, at least!)
i think a quiet place with books and puzzles would be an appropriate option for kids who dont want to lay quietly for an hour- can you see if the school is amenable to something like that?
regarding disregarding punishments- i woud take something away thats really special to him. does he have a leapster/tag? special blanky? ANYTHING. make a deal of putting it away and not givng it back for a day. also, we just reinsituted sticker charts for both our 4 and 6 year old to cut some of the backtalking/crying over nothing/tantrums etc that were cropping up. 20 stickers and you get a prize. its actually been working well - but my kids react well to incentives and the like. we do stickers every night before bed (when evreyone remembers...) good luck. sounds like a truly crappy day. have some ice cream for dinner, after everyones asleep!
Oh my gosh. The laughing while being disciplined? My 3 yr 3 mo does the SAME thing once in a while and my extremely mature reaction to that is to continue acting like a giant scary bitch until he's not laughing anymore. It doesn't really work.
The nap expectation seems unreasonable to me. I second the others who suggested asking for a quiet alternative activity for the non-nappers. Can he at least have a book or crayons at his mat?
my kid (who is now 19) would also laugh in the face of discipline. he is a very strong willed individual - sometimes this is good, sometimes not so much.
i allowed him to make his own consequences, of course with a little guidance from me, without him knowing that was what he was doing. being strong willed, he likes to be in control, so i gave him choices to go with his behaviors. i wish i could think of examples when the kid was as young as yours, but i can only think of things more recent (i.e. once he got his driver's license, he didnt' have a set in stone curfew, before he would go out i'd ask him what time he was going to be home. if he said something crazy like 4 am, i told him midnight. he then would say 3, i would say 1. he'd say 2. i'd say 1. he'd say 130. i'd say 1. if he kept arguing (once he knew i wasn't going to waffle from 1:00), then i'd tell him his choices were (a) stay home or (b) 1:00. 1:00 started looking real good at that point.
i like the sticker idea that another poster suggested; however, my kid would have gotten bored very quickly with stickers.
maybe he could get 5 more minutes watching a television program he likes if he does something good or he can get 5 minutes of sitting in his room.
the key is to be consistent.
hope your little dude's day was better.
Neither of my older kids bothered to take naps when they were four. And it wasn't like they were dragging their tiny bodies home virtually lifeless due to lack of sleep. Naps were simply not needed.
My kids were also told to "be quiet" as in work on a puzzle silently, color silently, etc., Not "lay on this 3' cot with nothing else to occupy your mind other than your own thoughts and what might happen to come along on this ceiling."
The laughing part... well, I still do it. My mom was seconds away from ending my life and still I was laughing. As an adult I learned I do this when nervous and/or incredibly uncomfortable. It makes for lots of fun situations (as in the dental hygenist thinks I'm a scream) and incredibly awkward situations (as in watching your boyfriend's face crumble the first time he gathered the courage to say "I love you" and all I could do was guffaw.)
My oldest is exactly like Jack (only 2.5yrs old). She shuns naps. Always has. Quiet? No way. Telling her its time to be quiet is an invite to have her be louder.
She also thinks discipline is awesome. She'll shove her sister to the floor and announce "I'm going in time out now!" and sit herself in the time out spot.
Yesterday, we couldn't find her cup and she said its in the toy box. About half way into it, she says, "I'm lying." with a huge smile on her face. The cup was behind the couch and she knew it.
I'm fairly certain she's going to have to be homeschooled and I often contemplate begging Nanny Jo to come to my house and help.
I don't have any advice, but I see my future in this post.
You know, I don't think that the way that you are punishing him is the problem. I was trying to think of why an otherwise sweet little boy would be acting out and enjoying being punished and I came up with this, maybe he's enjoying the attention!
So maybe you could put aside some time for you or your husband to do an activity with just HIM a couple times a week and get him more involved with helping out with Maeve (to make him feel important and like a protector of her).
Good luck!
My 3 year old has given up naps, much to my dismay. However, now she knows that she has to find a quiet activity during naptime - whether that is playing in her room, doing puzzles, coloring, etc. I would definetly talk to the teachers about finding Jack a quiet activity because laying still/quiet for an hour would just about kill any kid. I find it somewhat ridiculous that they haven't come up with a solution other than getting upset with him every. single. day. Good luck!!!
As a former elementary and preschool teacher, I can't imagine having a 3 or 4 yo sit/lay still for an hour. Maybe play quietly? My 3yo hasn't napped since he was almost 2 (much to my disappointment) and he's fine- not lifeless at all.
As for the discipline, I'm a fan of John Rosemond and the poster who said to take away something that meant a lot to your son is right up that alley. I'd also put him to bed earlier (if possible). I do tickets at my house- 3 tix per day for certain behaviors I'm trying to correct. Right now it is leaving toys out and saying mean things to his sister. He understands that if he loses all 3 tix in a day he's in his room for the remainder of the day till dinner, then straight to bed. Seems harsh, I know, but it's only taken 2 days for him to not lose any tix.
Good Luck to you- and don't be too upset with the preschool teacher- calling you and requesting the conference is absolutely the last straw for a teacher. She just wants your input and to let you know they were trying...
Not the expert here... just wanted to tell you I'm thinking of you. Good luck with your meeting.
Well, two things. First, he loves school, doesn't he? What if you tell him he can't go anymore because he can't be considerate? Second, I think he is adjusting to a big change in your family. Maybe he figured that baby was only going to visit for a week or two, then go back where she came from!
don't know if it would help any, but sometimes putting something to a command takes the fun out of it--if everyone is told to yell and make a bunch of noise it's not so much fun after about the 3rd time...however if you say 'it's time to be quiet' then being loud is much more fun. Of course, I do not know how the school would implement this since obviously having one kid yell during quiet time would defeat the purpose.
Oh Amy - I feel your pain (but with slightly different things). I really hope this is a phase. I'm trying to be consistent, and at least I'm trying, which is something! Remember, put it in perspective, Jack is in a loving home with people who care about his well being and education and behavior. In the end, he will be ok - I know plenty of kids who don't even have that!
Hi Amy!
Love your blog- sorry to hear about the problems at school. I have a 2- and 1- year old, so I have no advice to give!! Can you take away priviledges? Maybe a new game from Christmas, or no friends over or something. I hear you about the yelling- I reserve my scariest voice for dangerous stunts my children have pulled, and most times it has zero effect at scaring them. Oh well. Best of luck!!!
My almost-4-yo is in a program at our church (it's the 3's class) and they are required to nap or lay quietly for an hour after lunch if they stay for the "play" option. They can just go to the "school" part and we can pick them up before lunchtime. Anyway, they tell us that if our kid needs a nap, this stay and play option isn't for us. They know kids aren't going to necessarily nap or stay still. They watch a movie or cartoons during quiet time, but they have to stay on their sleep mats.
Hope you have a better day today!
We did not choose full-day schools this school year because of the naptime expectation. it made me really sad to think of my super active non-napper trying to be still for an hour. So, we went with a mornings-only program.
I remember asking a preschool director what the teachers do during nap, and she said they take a break. I didn't want H to be the kid who screwed up the break for everyone b/c I didn't think they'd like him very much.
The laughing? Oh yeah. Makes me blind with rage. Blind. I just walk away from him, which for the little ham is total torture. I am actually trying everything in my power to NOT yell anymore (hahahahahaha), and totally withdrawing my attention works a smidge better for us than yelling.
I'm going to be the first one to tell you that I laughed. Out loud.
It is so nice to see/read that other moms have the same problems!
Everyone's suggestions are fantastic. My opinion?
Sounds like he does not need a nap. Laying quietly sounds like misery to me. I think the teachers should find something else for him to do during that time. Could he go to the Kindergarten room and work on a project? I love choices, it's what life is about. Why can't they say: "Would you like to lay quietly or put together this puzzle/color/glue/etc."?
As for the laughing? It is so hard to see sometimes when you are in your own adjustment period that other people have to adjust too. Sweet boy just got thrown a curve ball in the name of "maeve". I think you should find something that works, time out, loss of privleges, (I'm still looking for what works with my 8 y/o) I'm a firm believer in being consistent.
I'm sure this is a phase, and you'll both get through it. Hopefully no worse for the wear.
Hi
I have to agree that having a four year nap or be quiet for an hour is a lot to ask. All 4 of my children gave up their naps at 18 months.
A quiet activity like puzzles or looking at books might be a better option. Could he listen to something with headphones? It does seem like there should be an alternative for older kids who can't sleep.
My kids are older(11-19)and I am certainly guilty of yelling and taking privileges/toys away. I can honestly say it has never worked too well in the long term. Positive reinforcement has always worked much better. How about a system where if he can be quiet for an hour the teachers will let you know, he then puts a smiley face on the calendar. When he gets 5 or so he chooses an activity(from a list)to do alone with Mom or Dad.
I can't help thinking his behavior is a reaction to having to share you again and he is just trying to get some extra attention.
If all else fails just remember "this too shall pass". Good Luck. You are a good Mommy and he will be fine.
Julie (signed in through dd's account)
I agree that a better option would be to allow a quiet activity for the children who do not need a nap; or at least allow them to take a book or small toy with them on the cot.
I also like the ticket idea by Rosemond, as mentioned by Stacy. We have used it in our household to eliminate unwanted behaviors. The great thing is, after once or twice of spending the rest of the day in their rooms, it doesn't happen again.
As to the laughing? Perhaps he hasn't developed a sense of empathy for others yet; I wouldn't worry about it too much at this point. Just clearly state the consequences of his behavior (i.e. "you now will lose a ticket because you headbutted Maeve/you now will not get to watch Sesame Street because you hit Emmie", etc.), and follow through. His laughter/non-laughter should be ignored by you.
I know that's not easy, because it makes a mom so freaking mad that her kid seems oblivious that he's misbehaving/being a jerk, but it really is probably the best way to handle it. He will most likely grow out of it, and develop some more appropriate responses to others' pain as he matures. In the meantime, he needs to feel some pain himself for his actions (i.e., time in room, removal of privileges, etc.)
Good luck, Amy! Hang in there. It will get better. He won't be 4 forever. :)
Totally late for lunch with my mom but just wanted to respond that I HATE NAPTIME at the daycare! We had a heck of a last year at ours before my daughter started school because she was clearly ready to be done with napping and yet she had to lie still for a bloody hour and a half because that was the policy. It was hellish and we were all so relieved when she started kindergarten. I don't know how big your school is but I'm going to push harder when the next two kids get to that point to have some sort of setup, even if I have to pay for a sitter at the school for that hour, where kids whose parents don't want to nap can stay up and play quietly or read a book in another room for that time. It's torture and it's not fair!
Big sympathies from me!
Just want to let you know that I think state law requires naps up to five at school. So it's not your school - it's a requirement. At least that is the case in Michigan.
Hang in there!
Been there, done that! Ours was diagnosed a year or so later with ADHD after she darn near drove her Kindergarten teacher to drink. I think given another year, she would have done okay with the naps...but she just wasn't ready at that point in her life. I'll never forget the phone calls, lack of remorse, the entire ordeal except in female form. One thing I did that seemed to help was tell her "if you refuse to nap at school, I will come get you and you will nap at home for double the time. You don't have to sleep but you DO have to be quiet so the other kids can rest." Hauled her home once after the 900th phone call...put her on a nap mat on the floor...and had her rest for double the time while I caught up on People magazine. Worked like a champ.
Sorry you are dealing with this. Couple of thoughts based on my experiences with the little princesses who let me care for them –
1. I differ from a lot of other commenters in that, I don’t think is it unrealistic or unreasonable to expect a child over the age of 18 months or so, to lie still for an hour – you don’t have to sleep, but you do have to stay on your cot. I have seen it too often to know that it can be done, but it sometimes takes a little effort on the part of the teachers to get the point across. It used to amaze me to pick the girls up during naptime and see them resting so quietly. Tara still naps, but Savannah hasn’t really napped (except by accident) in a few years. She learned very quickly in Pre-K that you are quiet during nap time. If you are not, you are removed from the room and have to go and sit in the principal’s office, etc. If things were really bad, the uncooperative child might lose the privilege of participating in whatever fun activity came after the rest time.
2. Honestly, from your description, it sounds as if he is just enjoying the attention – even negative attention is attention. And while I know you are a great mom who loves her kids to bits, a new baby can cause a little one to feel displaced. So, in this situation, Jack was getting an awful lot of attention – he was the center of attention! So, now what to try to resolve this? A few thoughts:
3. If his teachers take him out of the room, he should have to sit somewhere boring and quiet. It may also help to know that if he does not remain quietly on his cot at rest time, he cannot do the next fun think taking place after the nap.
4. Is his hope that you come and pick him up? One the one hand, if you do go and get him, that just reinforces his control over you – hey – I disrupt enough and mom comes to get me. So, if you do that, I don’t think it is effective to make a big deal out of picking him up. Just take him home and have him be by himself in his room until his normal school-getting out time. Don’t make a big deal out of it or fuss at him – the idea is “no attention.”
5. That also works if he doesn’t want you to come get him. If you have to come get him because he will not do what is expected of him, then, it is going to be no fun for him – he will be in his room alone for the duration of school hours.
6. That also works for attention seeking behaviors like hitting and head butting – you can’t be nice, you have to play by yourself in your room. No getting “in trouble” just boring ol’ alone time.
Honestly, I know there is a lot of “my kid would never…[fill in the blank here]… But the truth is that barring very few exceptions that usually have to do with behavior issues like autism and adhd, kids, even little ones, will do what is expected of them – it is just up to us parents to enforce the expectations. Some parents are just not willing to be consistent in a way that is effective and that is a choice. There is nothing wrong with that, we all make choices about what we are and are not willing to do to get what we want and expect from our kids. An example – Tara did not STTN until she was over a year old. Many kids STTN earlier than that, some with the help of CIO. CIO probably would have worked on Tara – I have heard it has great success – but I was not willing to do that – so I lived with the situation until she got it on her own. That was my choice.
I hope it gets better. Keep us posted!
One hour nap time? I wanna go to that school! That rocks.
Totally ridiculous for a 4 year old. Some kids just don't nap! All of mine for example...:(
Hang in there for the conference!
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